What is Coding



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What is Coding with Melenie Schatynski

Melenie Schatynski: [00:00:00] It's it gives you that ability and preview previous your problem solving skills, but also so some of the people that I teach. They don't necessarily want to be developers because not everybody does. And I get that. But they work in things like SEO and a lot of these SEO tools. Now I think there's a Google one is written using Python.

[00:00:20] So they don't need to know much Python, but they need to understand it. And then I've got another person who is a product toner and works with their developers. So having that little bit of coding background enables them to have better conversations with their developers and even from a a sort of founders point of view, if you're going to be hiring developers to build your apps, like you don't want to be going into this blind, you want to have some kind of understanding of what it is that you need to build.

[00:00:49]And then you can be reassured that when you're having those technical conversations, that you're getting what you want out of it, rather than just giving it over to someone else and hoping for the best.

[00:01:08] Chris OHare: [00:01:08] On Chris, O'Hare your quick win CEO. And as a CEO, I've run businesses found his startups cause something for, and even won awards. But in this show, we'll be talking to entrepreneurs and experts to help you understand key concepts for your business. Along with three quick wins that you could take it away and apply it to your business today.

[00:01:28] And every week where we finding out about the entrepreneur themselves and diving into a different but important topic. And it's competition time. And the moment I given away, 10 of my favorite business books, including the lean startup business model generations of one lucky winner. And these are great for all levels of skill from a CEO.

[00:01:47] It's a founder. That's where it's all you need to do is go to Apple podcast, subscribed and scroll to the bottom and leave a review. It doesn't have to be detailed. You can just say that you love this podcast than email quick wins. CEO at head doctors told to say that you've entered. And in this show, we're talking to Melanie Shapinsky at developer.

[00:02:09] Who's worked with the likes of the Telegraph and now has her own business called my code kit, a software based toolkit that breaks down the complicated barriers of coding for youngsters and promotes failure as a tool for learning. And first we find out about Melanie, what coding is a why it's a vital job skill for the future.

[00:02:31] And before we discuss the various ways you can get started with coding along with her quick wins to speed up that process. So if you wanted to understand coding a bit more in layman terms, this episode is for you. So here we go Melenie Schatynski. Thanks Melanie, for agreeing to be on this podcast show.

[00:02:50] What start thing that you read or watched, or that kind of left an impression on you? Whether a Netflix series a funny video or a book that you read just to give the audience an insight and to you and something that you found interesting.

[00:03:09] Melenie Schatynski: [00:03:09] I wouldn't say it's like a particular thing, a particular podcast. So I'm a big fan of podcasts. Absolutely adore them. But there is a podcast called conversations of inspirations by Holly Tooker and at the end of it. So she does these conversations with a lot of different entrepreneurs and their journeys.

[00:03:24] And at the end of it, they always write a letter to their past cells, which I was thinking is quite nice. And it's That kind of Oh, like then you have that moment yourself where you're going, Oh, if I was going to write that letter to myself, what would I say? And it's just really nice seeing their journeys and seeing where they've come from.

[00:03:41] Chris OHare: [00:03:41] So it's about reflection then it's about self-reflecting. And so are you taking that and learning from it or is that almost a point in time where you're feeling the, you could say, or this. It's almost like a check point in your life. Yeah. Like the bit at the end, which is like the conversations to their past selves is like you say, it's almost like that chat point in your life, but the really nice thing about these set of podcasts is a lot of entrepreneurial podcasts will be like, Oh look, this is fantastic.

[00:04:09] Melenie Schatynski: [00:04:09] Look of all these great things that we're doing. And they don't show like what goes on underneath. As like when you're starting your own business, there's all this other stuff that's underneath that no one ever sees because yeah. We'll hide and pretend we're all doing hunky-dory and what this does is a nice way of sharing that and a nice way of being like, okay, you're not on your own.

[00:04:27] We've all gone through this process of starting a business. And these are the sort of things that happen. Okay. It sounds a bit like a diary. If you, yeah, like listening someone else's diary, it's just an interesting point because you only really learn from your past experiences. And you only really think about what you can do better as you reflect on exactly what you've done in the past and that's. It's a big entrepreneurial thing where we have to make sure that whatever we're doing now is the most optimal and the most efficient way of doing it. So I really like that.

[00:05:04] Chris OHare: [00:05:04] So I'm definitely gonna go away and look at it. Yeah. Check it out. So let's talk about. You and who you are and what it is that you do. So what's your business now, or what kind of, because we know you're a developer and we know that you run a business, but you're still training calls. So tell us about those.

[00:05:26] Yeah, of course. So I like, like you said, I'm a developer, I've been a developer for 13 years now.  Actually got into it because I failed my levels and didn't end up doing a media course. Really wanted to go into radio. And then that's like how my whole career started was from this failure.

[00:05:44]Melenie Schatynski: [00:05:44] So I have like staff training costs in a business, which are both based around coding and failure. And trying to show that failure is just a first attempt in learning when you're coding. What a lot of people don't realize is 90% of it is stuff going wrong. Like it is that deep booking process that's coding.

[00:06:03]So that's how my cocaine came about is from seeing young people go through that process and not having the resilience there to continue. So what my Coco are building is a platform to help those young people learn how to cope build that resilience and encourage that first attempt in learning.

[00:06:23] And then I take the same sort of learnings. And I put that into a training course, which is for adults because after speaking to a bunch of different adults, they've all had the same thing. Just they've tried these different online courses and not getting very far with it. So I also run a introduction to Python course, which focuses on making mistakes and getting stuff wrong.

[00:06:44] But also teaching you. How to deal with that afterwards. It's all well and good doing an online course and being like, yeah, I got this right. But if you then can't figure out how to fix it for yourself. It's not very good. So that's what my two businesses do is based on. Teaching you failure is a good thing.

[00:07:01] We like failure and coding. I spent half my life cooked, like failing. That's a really good point. And I think everyone should learn that in, in all aspects of life, is that failing like. As we iterated on before, and I can see why you picked that interesting facts or toss that you do in terms of, reflecting back on your previous self.

[00:07:23] Chris OHare: [00:07:23] So I would like to say the. Failing is easy for me now, but it really is. And I still really struggled with it. Maybe I need to do your course, Melanie. Because I still get frustrated myself. And I guess it's about teaching yourself that it's a natural part of the journey. Okay. But that's really interesting about failing and it's not what a lot of people know, and I think there's a lot of.

[00:07:48] Self-improvement that people tend to go through where they learning something new and they don't quite finish that thing that the learning in terms of, if it's coding or if it's,  I'm starting to learn how to use a proper DSLR. And, Oh my God, all this is frustrating.

[00:08:06] There's so much here to learn and. But essentially by making those mistakes, I'm learning, I'm coming back and I'm improving. I'm getting better about them. But so what did that coding and failure kind of multi-cam from  what was it in your policy that you went, Oh,  that's really irritated me and.

[00:08:25] You cause you said you saw in young people, but what about yourself? Did you, do you ever experience that yourself massively? So I began my coding journey by accident. Like I say, I failed to do my a levels, so I failed to go into radio. And I started as a rental agent at the age of 17. But turns out I was rubbish at that, so they stuck me upstairs and they went, yeah.

[00:08:49]Melenie Schatynski: [00:08:49] You're going to be the PA I'm getting to the point, don't worry. And then one day they were like, we need a new CRM system. So I naively thinking, I don't want to lose my job was like, why don't we build one? And then even more Navely went, I'll do it. So that was really like the first time I'd ever come across coding and I failed massively.

[00:09:07] I had all these books and all these expectations, mostly. Expectations of myself, because again, it's my first ever job didn't want to get fired. And then that's continued. So like in coding I've learned lots of different things in my career and I've done, I've made sure of backend development and front end development and I'm like hand on heart, learn something new every single day and fail at something new every single day.

[00:09:30] Just doing a piece at the moment with a genetic algorithms which please don't ask me what they are, because I'm still failing at that and still trying to work that out myself. So yeah, like in my experience, definitely it's something I've come across every day. And I think where me wanting to make that more accessible to everybody else says when you try and Google these things, or you look in places like stack overflow, the internet is a scary place and you end up with a bunch of people going, Oh how can you not know that? And I want to demystify that a little bit and be like, okay, it's not just for those people that have spent the past 10 years doing it. Like actually we can break this down in a really logical way.

[00:10:10]Cause I wish I'd had that really rather than just go on the internet, go, ah, Yeah, no, I completely agree. Stack overflow is the perfect place and a lot of the times are wrong as well, or they give you lots of different alternatives to the code. And if anyone doesn't know about stack overflow, Basically a forum for developers to post their questions or non-developers to post questions and for developers to respond to them and help them with those.

[00:10:39] But yeah it's a massive repository of. Craziness. But don't let that put you off coding. No, definitely not. Definitely. Really? Yeah. Helps. And Google is your friend when you're co coding, which I'm sure Melanie completely agrees with. Cause most of the time we just don't know, do we, when we're coding half the time we take.

[00:11:00] A bit of an inkling of what we'd done in the past. And then we come back and we go, Oh yeah, I remember this. And then we go away, we Google it. And then we remember how to do it all, or we find a new way of doing it. That's really good in terms of explaining what failure means to you, what, as an entrepreneur, sure.

[00:11:18] Our bed in the morning, what, why are you doing these? My. Co kits. And what's that driver for you or the training course? What's it? The makes you get out of bed. I think it is it's that thought of making it accessible to everybody? Because I don't believe that it shouldn't be, I think it's just having the right tools there and knowing where to look and.

[00:11:42] Yeah, it's just that thought of being able to help somebody make their life a little bit easier by, you might write a scratch, which automates part of your process.  Feel like that knowledge should be shared. And that's what kind of makes me think, Oh, like I could do something better here.

[00:11:56]Especially when it comes to the the education stuff. So my Coca is aimed at GCSE students and I used to work in a school. So I'm actually a trained sacrum of school teacher as well. Just why not? And.  There's a lot, there were competing, came into the curriculum in 2014, but schools weren't necessarily prepared for that.

[00:12:17]And now there's this whole thing where there's a bunch of teachers that are teaching that don't want to be because they've got a lack of teachers. So I want to be able to help in some way to be able to give those students like the same kind of opportunities as everybody else. It makes a lot of sense.

[00:12:36] If, what would I have done differently if I had a teacher that taught me how to learn rather than just the material. And I guess it's quite rewarding when you see that, that expression of realization on people, when you go, Oh wow. Oh, that's how you do it. No that I teach many people now, but definitely think.

[00:12:57] I can see why you would find that a driver. So obviously you've got these amazing businesses and you're doing really well in terms of your course and my Coke kit. Now I suppose we should really talk about coding and your specialism and. And that kind of help our audience to, to get to grips with code themselves.

[00:13:15] I'm going to dive in some questions and ask you some questions and hopefully we can shed some light on the kind of topic which is coding. So just out of interest, how would you define coding? What is it that coding would? If you've gotta tell someone they didn't really understand what coding is what would you say coding is?

[00:13:35] So I actually Googled this question. And like the, the definition is coding is a computational language, which enables you to write programs. But you didn't ask that you asked what is keeping to me, coding to me as much more than that. Like coding to me is it's the freedom to be able to build something yourself.

[00:13:54] It's the creativity. It's the problem solving it's the making your life a little bit easier. Like I say, being able to automate stuff just to beat that process a little bit easier, so it doesn't have to be making a big app. Like it could just be creating a small tool. Okay. So would you say that cause a lot of people see coding as this big gigantic thing, and you're saying it's just about creating a script, or, Yeah. In terms of the automation, in terms of making sure that you are taking yourself out of the equation and the computers doing these potentially administrative tasks, would you say that's what coding could be? Yeah, I definitely I think. You people sometimes get a little bit bogged down and trying to do like these big projects with them coding, but really it could be just something as simple as you need to go and look at 10 websites, you can write a script using some already built libraries and stuff.

[00:15:04]Pieces of code reuse, the code that other people have written. And you could write that in an hour. And that could save you say four hours of going through all these individual websites and searching for, I dunno, the call to action, the button or something like that. It could be something as simple as that.

[00:15:18]But it's giving you, it's, like I say it's giving you the freedom to be able to build these tools yourself which is what coding would enable you to do that doesn't need to be massive. It's really important point that we break down the barrier to, to what coding is.  Someone else may is a no code up.

[00:15:37] Chris OHare: [00:15:37] Is it still coding? And I was like yeah, because actually a coding is a lot about the logic actually. Like the actual language itself is just that it's just syntax. It's just a language. And for me when I code. It's about actually the bigger problem is problem solving and it's that ability to go through a set of stages or steps to get to where I want it to be at the end of it.

[00:16:03] And if people can learn that, then coding is just like learning another language. It's just learning the syntax to do that. So to your point earlier, when you said about, coding, like we Google a bunch of stuff, like absolutely. So I know. Quite a few different languages just because different projects have needed different languages, but that is all it is.

[00:16:24] Melenie Schatynski: [00:16:24] It's syntax. Like I just, because I Google something like I may know that I need to do a four loop, which is a piece of code, which loops round and it's rates the same piece of code in a slightly different way each time. And. I might have forgotten how to write that in JavaScript or PHP or Python, that doesn't make me a bad coder.

[00:16:46] That just means I just get full. But I know the kind of I know the logic that I need to put together, but not necessarily the syntax can come later as why. In my course, I teach Python because the syntax is so simple because that's not the important bit that can then try and be transferred to a different language.

[00:17:03] The important bit, like you say, is the logic. But yeah, I don't agree with your note code point as well. Like I said, for the prototyping, for my co-care, I'm using a partner code part code solution, one for the no code stuff. Yes, there's no physical syntax in the app, but I'm still having to map it out the same way using flow charts and different diagrams and stuff like that.

[00:17:25] As I would, if I was doing a code problem and having those problem solving skills enable me to do that. Oh of interest. What is that tool that you're using? What's that called? So it's called app giver. It's not got the best name. Yeah, it is not the most creative, although I was having a conversation and another podcast about creativity is just about creating ideas.

[00:17:49]And and  yeah, I, in one respect or building. And creating building is creativity. And in one respect, the coders and developers are probably some of the most creative people on the planet when you think of it that way. Instead of being on the autistic side where we're more about engineering builders.

[00:18:06]Chris OHare: [00:18:06] Yeah, that was an interesting point that I learned the other day, but that's good in terms of giving that tool out there, app giver. I think that people are gonna look at that in terms of why people should code, what is it that you feel that people should do in terms of coding?

[00:18:25] Is it the The fact that they could potentially change their careers or do you think it could strengthen the position in the current job or enable them to have a bit more confidence when it comes to a technical tool that they're using? What would you say? Why is it useful? I'm really sorry about that.

[00:18:44] Melenie Schatynski: [00:18:44] I said to Chris, before this started, we've got works going on both sides. So probably hearing lots of banging. I th I think like all of those points, really. So I think obviously it's no secret coding has great job opportunities. And it does pay very well. Let's say it how it is. Yeah.

[00:19:00]But it is more than that as well. Like I say, it's, it gives you that ability improve your problem solving skills, but also so some of the people that I teach. They don't necessarily want to be developers because not everybody does. And I get that. But they work in things like SEO and a lot of these SEO tools.

[00:19:19] Now I think there's a Google one is written using Python. So they don't need to know much Python, but they need to understand it. And then I've got another person who is a product owner and works with their developers. So having that little bit of coding background enables them to have better conversations with their developers and even from a a sort of founders point of view, if you're going to be hiring developers to build your apps, like you don't want to be going into this blind, you want to have some kind of understanding of what it is that you need to build.

[00:19:52]And then you can be reassured that when you're having those technical conversations, that you're getting what you want out of it, rather than just giving it over to someone else and hoping for the best. Yeah, there's definitely lots of different benefits to learning to code as well as, the obvious there are great job opportunities.

[00:20:12]Chris OHare: [00:20:12] Yeah, I can definitely hear your your builders now. But in terms of why, so it's really exciting said that you talk about your course participants and why they are doing, the, your course. And I guess for me, it was it's about taking that stigma away from Code in terms of almost democratizing code in terms of taking it away from being a job, but actually being a part of your life.

[00:20:42] And when you think about where the world is going, where, Jeff Bezos says, every company is a data company and I spoke to another entrepreneur the other day and he was like, every company is a software company. That's where the world is going with this data. Therefore people need to be able to either retool or re-skill because potentially their jobs become different, right?

[00:21:06]They're not necessarily going to lose their jobs, but they can become different. And what they do. I know the law or the legal profession is going to have a massive restructuring when AI starts to look at how the kind of junior lawyers or legal assistants go through all the texts in terms of all the legal cases, because that's, that can be massively automated with the computer.

[00:21:31] Right now, if those junior lawyers had some level of coding, They will be far more useful in terms of being able to go through and tweak these algorithms if to better it in. It's best to train the software, to pick up the things that it might not do. And I think that's definitely the way the future is going.

[00:21:54]And for me that's a big part of what I'm telling people is you need to understand that in 10, 20 years time, a lot of professions that we know today will not look the same. No. I know. I think it's I can't remember the percentage. I think it was something it really highlights 60, which is what we'd always told the kids that I teach is there, aren't going to, those jobs aren't gonna exist, but there's going to be 6% new jobs.

[00:22:17]Melenie Schatynski: [00:22:17] Like you say, re-skilling to be able to move into one of these jobs that you said that just don't exist right now. Does that make sense? Yeah, and I completely makes sense. And that's why, data analysts and data scientists are seeing a massive surge in, in jobs because which is that reskilling and retooling that we're talking about because the businesses know that today, then they need to be able to have this skill set on board for them to be able to compete.

[00:22:44] Chris OHare: [00:22:44] So completely agree. A hundred percent. So we've learned why people should code and what coding is, but. When, even in this discussion we've dropped PIF and PHP JavaScript, but a lot of people won't really understand what those different languages mean or why there's so many different languages.

[00:23:06] So what all the different languages that you use, obviously, we've got Python and why would you pick those over others? Good question. Usually it depends on what the project is. So I've worked for a lot of different companies and it's usually depending on the projects that they've already got in place.

[00:23:25]Melenie Schatynski: [00:23:25] But if I was to do something myself, so you tend to have, it tends to fit into two categories, which is a backend, which is all your functionality, all the stuff that you don't see in front end, which is. The pretty stuff whether that be the front end of your app or, a website or something like that.

[00:23:43]So the different languages that I'm talking about, some do fit into both categories, but it's usually you'll have a JavaScript, not necessarily anymore, but just for front end. And you'll have something like a PHP, which would just be backend in terms of your question of why do we have so many different languages.

[00:24:03] I actually don't know. That's really bad. Isn't it? I've actually got no idea. I don't know. That's why I'm asking you. Yeah, it's an a, but they're all, they all have a say they all have their similarities. So in terms of languages that I do I teach Python, PHP Java script, Java C-sharp VB. But if you were then to ask me, what would I use for a specific job?

[00:24:30]Depends on documentation like that. It tends to be that people bring out a new language or a new framework. So JavaScript's made up of lots of different frameworks and they'll be supported in different ways, depending on the community that is available or the number of packages, which is, like I said before code that somebody else has written that you can reuse.

[00:24:49]So in the instance of Python which is prominently used for backend stuff, but. Can again, be used in frontend that has a load of packages that you can use reuse. So again is really nice for beginners because you can just pick something off the shelf, hook that into your code, and all of a sudden your code's been gone from just printing the words.

[00:25:08] Hello. To, Scraping a website and saving it to a CSV just by important. It could different couple of packages. I don't know if that really answers your question.

Chris OHare: It does actually. I'm glad you raised about packages because it's definitely a reason why I always navigated to certain coding languages.

[00:25:27][00:25:27] Python is massive and the data science and AI. Sector. And there's a reason for that. And that's because they were mainly picked up by those those kind of people. And actually in physics. And I think in maths as well at university they actually teach Python. So there's definitely.

[00:25:44] I think it's almost like a tribe, right? So it depends on the tribe you've come from. Or you've mixed with, it tends to be all your job. If your, if you go into corporate tends to be Java, there's a lot of people that, that use Java. And then if you more. Freelance independent, smaller.

[00:26:02]You tend to be the more web dev technologies, which are like Python and PHP and JavaScript and those kinds of languages. I think I already, it depends on where your background has come from. I think I remember picking PHP when I started, but because I know WordPress was PHP, so I was like, all right.

[00:26:19] Okay. Yeah. WordPress is a thing. The, I want to use WordPress as a platform for websites that people don't know. But also. In terms of the price of it, it was free. And, when you [email protected] frameworks and stuff like that, there was more of a barrier to entry to these.

[00:26:38] These kinds of languages because you need certain things. And I remember with iOS, when I wanted to learn how to build an iOS app, I needed a Mac at the time. And I was like, that's crazy. That's a barrier for entry to, to use that, that. That coding language. So I guess these are the kinds of things that stop people, learning certain things.

[00:26:59] And it just depends on who you were and what you're doing in the background. The means why they happen, but why are there so many. Yeah. I just think an evangelist, a coding of Angeles has gone yet. We could do that better and they've gone. Yeah. There's a language that I've just picked up, which is an example of this and this language, honestly, it's actually fantastic.

[00:27:20] Melenie Schatynski: [00:27:20] So it's called dark Lang and it's mostly used for developing end points. So if you. Need a connection between one app and another, but it's written in such a way that we were, I actually worked part-time for a hiring company to pay the bills. And one of our members of staff there, who's not a developer has pick this up and it's just written like a little Slack bot, which integrates It makes people talk to each other.

[00:27:46] Now that we're all remote. It's really lovely. But yeah, like people just get bored, I think a little bit and go I'm going to create any language. Yeah, I've checked out that like it's good. I guess it's, again, it comes to the fact that people think that the problem is over complicated and they try and solve it.

[00:28:02] Chris OHare: [00:28:02] And that is a very coder mentality right there. Like we can do better, so we make it different or and we'll build it from scratch if we have to. And that's the kind of thing. That you're here a lot. Developers say, Oh yeah, no, he needs to build it from scratch. I okay. Yeah, you don't realize how much work has gone into this.

[00:28:20] And one thing you should always know that when you go into coding is that there's always something else to learn. There's always something new. And whether you. Adult tale or not. And then sometimes they die these certain languages, and sometimes you'll never hear it again, like dark Lang.

[00:28:37] It might be really good, but it might die in a few years and will never use it again. And that's a really strange world. It's like a giant popularity contest and yeah. I think that's a lot of people as well. Or like people that I've spoken to you, I am not just going to generalize for all people all over the world.

[00:28:55]Melenie Schatynski: [00:28:55] And really struggle with that as well. Like you say, cause there are so many languages, there's so many frameworks. Do you need to, one of the biggest questions I get asked is where do I start? What language should I start with? And it's honestly, the honest answer is just the simplest, most straightforward, easiest to set up language should be the one to go for.

[00:29:14]Don't worry about what is fashionable because it might, like you say, come and go as quick as double denim dead, but it might also it's going to use exactly the same sort of Logic that the other ones do. It's just syntactical sugar. That's all it is. Yeah, try not to worry about it.

[00:29:32] Just get started. Yeah, exactly. And that kind of brings us nicely onto our next question, which is if you're going to make a new app, like where do you start? Not necessarily just a mobile app or web app, any, anything, where would you start if you were going to start all over again, looking at all your experiences.

[00:29:50] Chris OHare: [00:29:50] And this is what I know now, this is where I should start. Oh, that is a difficult question. Honestly, I usually start with a piece of it paper. And then just go from that lecture. I know it doesn't sound very cool, but it's just the way that I work is I'll sit down with a piece of paper. Okay. And then I'll try not to get too hung up on the different technology.

[00:30:15] Melenie Schatynski: [00:30:15] So for my co-case product, for instance I'm actually at the moment Creating the prototype with, like I said, a no code solution. And I think if you're starting from scratch and you've got an app rather than worrying should it be Android or should it be iOS? Do I need to do it in Java? Which is what you'd need for Android?

[00:30:34] Or do I need to do it at Swift or C for iOS? Just. Get something out as like a, could say, like a no code kind of version and then worry about it. Cause then you can get that feedback back from people what actually will be useful. And then that should drive your technology. Not the other way around. I've definitely been guilty of building things first though, and going down the whole route of, Oh, look, I have an entire iOS app that nobody wants.

[00:31:01]But yeah, I'd let, actually other people dry fuel tech. So if you're going to have high numbers people using it between the hours of one and two and no other time, then you might want to look at something like serverless, which is where the box will only generate it.

[00:31:18] As I know it's being used, which will save you money, but you might not know that until you've actually got some kind of no-code prototype in front of them, which I again know, sounds terrible coming from a coder, but I actually really love no code salacious with my life so much easier. Yeah. Severless is a big deal.

[00:31:35] Chris OHare: [00:31:35] And it really came about a few years ago and changed my life when I'm using platform as a service type on Amazon or AWS. But I loved them, but that no code is basically confirming the problem, the business problem, right? Yeah. So it's taking. What it is that you are trying to solve putting that in front of some customers and then working out how much detail or how complex your art needs to be.

[00:32:08]So in terms of bubble or other no-code platforms have you used them and what's your opinion of them? What is it that you felt is bad and w, and also good. Obviously we know what some of the good things, but what else. So like I haven't used bubble, but I've used the, at the one that I said to app giver.

[00:32:27]Melenie Schatynski: [00:32:27] And I actually used a mixture of no code and code solutions. So I use the no code to be able to actually just put something in front of my users, but the connection that I needed between that. So I'm creating like an AI. Chat bot that helps you coding. And the connection that I needed between that and the stuff that does the AI stuff was a little bit custom just for testing.

[00:32:52] So I actually built that with myself, but it just meant that all I was building with this tiny little section of it in terms of disadvantages, the only ones that I would find is, and this just could be just because the one I'm using is it can be a little bit clunky at, you might not get exactly what it is that you want.

[00:33:10] In terms of visuals. But then that's when you start to, you've got that feedback and then you'd start to build it and be like, okay. So the feedback I've had is that people are only going to use this on on the web. So therefore I put in a job as air solution, bringing in someone that does UI and UX, and then go from there.

[00:33:29]Do you really need it to look visually pleasing from the get go? I don't know. I work with children, so the answer is yes. Yeah, you do. But yeah that, that's the only thing I've really found is struggling to get stuff to look the way that I do. And I think that I've managed to do it in some sense, because I know stuff like CSS, which is web technology.

[00:33:51] So I can. Manipulate it a little bit more, but I don't know. I want your opinion on it. Cause you've obviously used it a lot more than I have. So yeah, it's exactly that it's it's a prototype type system, right? So it's that idea of being able to take a a problem and get it in front of the users and turn it into something well, their scales I've not really had the opportunity to see what it would be like.

[00:34:15] Chris OHare: [00:34:15] Front of thousands of users using it concurrently skeptical. Yeah.  Doubt. Yeah, I doubt it will as well. But if you are getting those kinds of numbers, then you should start through to think about what's your next step anyway.  You've clearly defined the problem and you're getting good feedback.

[00:34:32]And not say it right. It's about rapid iteration and improvement learning what the customer wants and what they like. And then going back and adding that into the no-code platform, which if you are able to do that, yourself is quite easy. It's a really good option to do that. But to pay a developer to do that's when it gets a bit trickier and you're not going to have that.

[00:34:55] I would say. You're not going to have that guilt free use of trying to improve something. Cause you're always thinking about the money and how much it's going to cost to use a developer. And for me, I also think it allows. The the business owner or the founder, who's come up with the idea to really go for the logic as well, like properly, and really understand what it is they're trying to solve and helps them to think more deeply about the problem.

[00:35:25]Not, I think it's pretty worth its weight in gold because a lot of the times, and you probably get this as well. There's been a developer, everyone comes here and says, Oh, can you make this up? It's going to be, it's going to make you a million. I'm going to give you 50% of the app. And we get all the time.

[00:35:43] And the thing is. Most of the time they never will. It's very rare that an app will succeed. Unless you've got a massive marketing budget and I've always said that your tech needs to be about 10% of the of the budget. Whereas 90% of the, it should be a marketing because without users, the tech means nothing.

[00:36:04] Okay. You're never going to get, you're never going to get out of the, in the hands of real people, if you Don't invest in the marketing and that's where I think no code really comes into his own. And I'm advising a business at the moment, ignore going down the web dev route because you're never gonna get what you really need at the beginning.

[00:36:24] If you blow your budget on that. Yeah. Yeah, no, I'd agree with that. And I, I. Yeah. Like I think for my, the reason I'm stammering is because also this is my livelihood. I'm telling people not to use developers. But I know I do. I completely agree with that. I think in the first instance, especially when you're very unsure of what you need and I'm like, we all know what we want.

[00:36:47] Melenie Schatynski: [00:36:47] Don't we, and we've all got the I'm so guilty of it, of making solutions for stuff. Based on what I, pink people are going to. Use it. But that's, and I'll hold my hands up. I'm not always right. And stuff doesn't necessarily come out until you start building these things. And you learn if you've worked with developers before, as you'll get halfway through a project and we'll go, actually that thing that we've said here, isn't going to work.

[00:37:09] That's a nother X amount on days or. Pounds dollars, whatever on top of it, because we've not thought through this part of it just yet, because this is the first iteration. So if you can get that first iteration out yourself and then really have clear in your head, it will not only make your product better and make your relationship with your developers better.

[00:37:28] And it will make that feedback better. Like you're able to iterate with like basically not spending any money at all. Yeah. I'm not trying to take you out of a job.

[00:37:42] it's fine self because we come into our own as when we know, cause we get frustrated when. People come back and say, Oh, this is not where we want. We want to change it all. And it's because they've not really thought about the problem. Yeah. I'm guilty of doing it just as much, right. 2%. And I feel like that's just even drawing it on a piece of paper is worth its weight in gold.

[00:38:06] Chris OHare: [00:38:06] And I completely agree. And there was a, there's another podcast that we've done, which is all about. Writing your ideas down on a piece of paper to get them out of your heads and. Essentially, if you ask a Coda, what it is they do, they just do that, but in code. And you're just about solving problems.

[00:38:28] And however, that looks, we're just glorified problem solvers that can speak another language or code another language, but Google, yeah, Google Meisters. So I guess we've learned like code, w w. Why people should learn code and. How's it going? I'm ready to get started with code, but if you are going to get started with codes tomorrow do you have resources that you use other than your training course?

[00:39:01] Melenie Schatynski: [00:39:01] I there's some really good groups. There's a group called code bar which you could go and they stick you with a one-to-one mentor. Really good if you've got a project in mind and in terms of resources itself I. I would more just try and find a project that you care about. So there's a great website called automate the boring stuff, which includes a lot of small projects where you can automate some emails or something like that.

[00:39:33]And maybe you don't care about that, but. That for me, that sounds quite exciting. I don't have to write stuff, but find something that you care about. So you find something that's going to change the way that you work in a really small way, because then that is, you're going to be more inclined to actually do it then.

[00:39:48] So rather than going, Oh I'm going to go to code Academy or I'm going to go learn on Khan Academy. I think it's the other one. Actually find a project and do it that way. And then you can find resources based on that. I would recommend if you're looking for like tutorials or stuff like that.

[00:40:08] There's a really great website called dev dot two. And they have a, it's all written by developers. But they have a collection of like tutorials, which are from beginner all the way up to advanced. But it's a really nice community. You can ask questions on there. Everyone's really lovely.

[00:40:24] And they have code snippets and it, people tend to explain in a really nice way. And then, yeah, going back to the libraries and built in packages, I would just make use of those. So if you've got an idea, say you go and automate the boring stuff actually have a look just using the Google search, like package for XYZ ed.

[00:40:45]It's not specific putting you into certain places because it's really hard to deal with that, knowing what everybody wants to build. But I would, I don't stay away from code Academy and Khan Academy and things like that. Like I still think that are really good use of they're a good resource, but the issue with them is they don't teach you how to make mistakes.

[00:41:06] So they'll go through it and they'll be like, okay, this is a variable. Which is how you store data and coding. This is a conditional but if they weren't then say, okay, this is a conditional failing. Whereas the benefit of doing your own project is you will fail and you will fail hard, but that is a good thing.

[00:41:25] And it will teach you actually, when I see this error message, this means that I've done this wrong. Very quickly though, on the whole thing of error messages, when you get error messages I tend to just read the bottom line, just ignore everything else, but mine tends to tell you what it's doing and the rest is just really confusing and do put that into Google.

[00:41:46]Chris OHare: [00:41:46] No, I love that you really emphasize the fact that it's that point of. Trying and failing because the kind of online courses they go for a systematic approach, would you, I'm trying to think the last time I actually learned from a course more than I really learned from. Going off and trying it.

[00:42:14] And I can't as a code, I just don't think I have actually seen anything. And if anything, what I would do is I go on YouTube and I find the snippets. Of what it is that I'm trying to do and then work backwards or reverse engineer and things like that. But the courses, they tend to bombard you with too much information all at once.

[00:42:35] And I think that's why a training course like yours is that you give them a snippet and then they give you, you give them time to your time to basically go through and problem solve with you. So you can explain your thought process of how you would go about doing this. And I think that's really important.

[00:42:52]So I love that. That's really good. And I think people are going to really tell you that way. So what are the kind of three quick wins that you would give to anyone who is thinking about using coding for the business? Or do you just want to start to learn how to code what's your three quick wins?

[00:43:13]Melenie Schatynski: [00:43:13] Three quick things. I would have a look. So there's a you mean as if they want to learn how to code. Yeah. Yeah. However you say it. Okay. So three quick wins. The biggest thing that I, or one of the big of the questions that I come up a lot is, or complaints, not complaints. I don't get complaints is I don't have time to cope.

[00:43:36] So I'm going to go on that whole elk curve. Like I don't have time. Okay. So you only have 20 minutes. So what I would do is I would look at a website called project ULA, which is spelled project E U L E R. It has a collection of some really small projects, which are, print out some prime numbers.

[00:43:53] And then that gives you that in that 20 minutes time, you could just do some quick sort of little exercises like that. There is also another website called code Wars which is again little exercises, which you can do in that 20 minute gap to get you using some of these basics that you learn. And in that One thing I haven't mentioned is there isn't one way to code there's like hundreds and hundreds of ways to code.

[00:44:17] And what code was does is it will show you how you've done it and it will show you how everybody else has solved it. And you'll be so surprised how such a simple problem can be solved and so lots of different ways. And it really opens up your eyes to that. And then the third setting I suppose it's going back to this start simple.

[00:44:35] So you don't have to, I talked about Python being, there's very little setup, but those are actually really useful. Some boxes and the sandboxes is a webpage, which acts as a coding editor and de compiler, which translates your code down into machine code. You can see lots of pretty things.

[00:44:53]And there's one for JavaScript called JS fiddle. There is one for Python. Can't remember the name of it now. But if you just type Python online editor and then that means that you don't have to actually even open up an app and wait for that to apron or install anything. You can just go and you can start putting little snippets of code into your web browser.

[00:45:13] So that's my three, I only have 20 minutes is not an excuse anymore. And that's, and that is a big one, right? That's exactly what people will say is that they just don't have the time to code. So I love those. Thank you. And how would people be able to connect with you? After this podcast? If they wanted to either chat to you or look at your training course, or even looking at my code kit, how would they do that?

[00:45:39]So I'm on LinkedIn and I have a website fun fact, my parents spelled my name wrong. So my website is melanie.co.uk. But that is spelled M E L E N I E ,co.uk. You can also find me on LinkedIn, which is LinkedIn slash in slash Melanie again, spelled wrong. I am on Instagram at Melanie underscore codes and I'm also on Twitter at Drummond and your training courses on Melanie Docker.

[00:46:07] Chris OHare: [00:46:07] Okay. And my training coastal, Melanie don't cut EK, but just send me a message. I'm. Yeah, I'm here. I'm happy to answer any questions. Absolutely fine. Great. Thank you, Melanie. I really appreciate that. And and I'm unsure that you're going to get a lot of people contacting you.

[00:46:31] Wasn't Melanie gray explaining coding in layman's terms. And she's given us lots of useful tips about how to get going with coding, but what did you think of Melanie's quick wins, quick win. Number one, if you don't have time to go check out project, you'll love for those small projects. The practice on especially fits in those 20 minute gaps in your day.

[00:46:51] Quick win. Number two, do practice projects on code walls, which also shows you how much other people have solved the problem and highlights. There are hundreds of ways to code the quick win. Number three. Start simple. You don't need a full development environment. Just use a browser based sandbox, but what was your favorite bit of the show?

[00:47:11] Tell me on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Tik, TOK, or YouTube, where you can find me at digital. Don't forget. You can also watch his show on YouTube or listen on all major podcast platforms, including Apple and Spotify. And remember I'm giving away 10 of my favorite business books, including lean startup and business model generation to one lucky winner.

[00:47:34] And these are great for all levels of skill from a CEO to a founder and winter we need to do is go to Apple podcast, subscribe, then scroll to the bottom and leave a review. And it doesn't have to be detailed. You can just say that you love this podcast. It just takes a few minutes to write a review and then email quick Quincy.

[00:47:55] I had all this stuff with a copy of your review, but thank you for listening until next time. I'm your quick win CEO. Signing out.

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